Saturday, February 20, 2010
Deceit & Distrust
Since Odysseus arrived home in Ithaca in Book 13 he had deceived several people, even close family members, about his true identity, including Eumaeus, Telemachus (briefly) and even Penelope. What is the value of deception, cunning, and trickery in Mycenaean society? Is it a necessary survival skill? A wise precaution after 20 years away? Or does it have a cost? Is there a down side to Odysseus' proclivity for distrust?
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Odysseus is known for not being very trustworthy. We have had several discussions in class about the fact that there is no real reason to believe anything he says, and after he arrived home from Ithaca, he lied to just about everybody he cared about. He told them all elaborate lies and deceived them into thinking he was just some poor beggar. All the while they were suffering because of his absence. In this case though, I think keeping his identity to himself was a wise decision. What would have happen if he hadn’t? Going into Ithaca, Odysseus had no clue how many suitors there were, or how forceful they could be. If Odysseus had come strolling back into to town, the suitors would have caught wind of it right away. That would have given Odysseus no time to prepare, and he would have been killed indefinitely, and Ithaca would have no hope left. Odysseus and Athena’s plan was the right way to go. It can be argued that Odysseus could have only told his loved ones, but that puts a serious risk factor in. He went with the safest route possible, keeping his identity safe from everybody (except for Telemachus who helped to create his plan) until he had a solid plan of defeat.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything Maddie said about Odysseus keeping everything a secret and lying to the citizens of Ithca. I think the value of deception, cunning and trickery in Mycenaen society is more supported than it is shunned. For example, when the crippled Hephaestus built a cunning trap around his bed when he found about Ares and Aphrodite in his bed in book 8. In this story, Hephaetus is seen as cunning and is not punished for it but rewarded for his trickery. This helps show the value of deception , cunning a trickery in the society.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Maddie that keeping his identity a secret is a good idea, especially since the suitors wanted to kill his son , they would also want to kill him if they found out he was still alive to gain power. But I think that Odysseus sort of used his fake identity for himself, in book 14 Odysseus says
“ on my oath I swear
Odysseus is on his way!
Reward for such good news? Let me have it
The moment he sets foot in his house
Dress me in shirt and cloak, in handsome clothes”( 14.76-80)
In this he uses the fact that he knows that Odysseus will come home because he is Odysseus to get himself clothing.
This might also add the fact that Odysseus might be also tricking which lowers his level of trust to the people if they know that he has lied to him, almost like the Boy who cried wolf.
Just putting this out there, no Maddie, I did not read your post so I do not get too defensive/write about something that I was not planning on writing about. So, Odysseus, throughout the majority of the epic, is telling a story about himself. However, there is absolutely no way to know whether or not he is telling the complete truth. As we have discussed, Odysseus is a very good trickster, which just gives him a bad record. Here’s a simile: This is like Mrs. Roark yelling at Sam when she hears Max talking. We think that Odysseus could be telling a fib to gain Kleos, just because of other things that he has done. But in this case, being a trickster is very helpful, for without it Odysseus’ fate would have been the same as Agamemnon, who was killed by his wife and her lover. So basically, trickery got Odysseus pretty far. The Phaecians all believed his story, and that is what got him home to Ithica. And if he got home without being in disguise, he would have been torn apart by the suitors. Furthermore, I believe that deception, cunning, and trickery was valued in Mycenaean society, but still not in ours. This is because we seem to be much more suspicious than those of the Homeric age. I concluded this because we even had a discussion about it during class. So THERE.
ReplyDeleteAhh Grace I didnt even see your's there. Just clarifying, I didnt read Grace's either
ReplyDeleteTrust seems to be a big issue in the Odyssey as we see that lying and trust are big components in the plot of the Odyssey. Odysseus is the one main character that continually has a trust problem. From his crew, Eumaeus and Penelope he cannot trust the people will indeed not leave him. I will start with an example with Eumaeus the swineherd. Eumaeus believes Odysseus’s entire story about how he lived and grew up and was raised in Crete. Odysseus being the cunning trickster he is, we don’t know if any of the stories he told anyone were true. If he lied once he most likely lied some other time. One reason though that he might not be trustful is because even after is crew continually makes oaths they disobey Odysseus and, for example, go out and kill the cattle of the sun. Because of this incident I can understand why Odysseus is not trustful sometimes. I am not sure why he continually lies to people, does not trust others and why everyone else believes his stories especially because Odysseus keeps lying. The only situation I can understand is when he is back in Ithaca and needs to keep his identity a secret because the suitors will kill him. Also I would like to note that without the schemes and lies the book would not have the same effect.
ReplyDeleteEveryone who commented on this post has very good points. If he decided not to cover up his indentity, the suitors would have come out of the palace, found him and harmed him. Whether physically, by beating up or killing him, or emotionally, trying to scare him off by harming his son, which was one of their plans to begin with. I feel that there is a huge down side to Odysseus hiding his true self and lying o everyone. First off, Odysseus really shouldn’t be lying to Eumaeus. I think since Eumaeus has helped so much since Odysseus had arrived, and how faithful Eumaeus is to Odysseus even though he believes he is dead should be a good enough reason to tell him the truth. What if for some reason Eumaeus realizes he doesn’t trust Odysseus, who Eumaeus sees as a beggar and tries to harm him. Any possible thing that Eumaeus could do could harm Odysseus and impair his journey home…to the palace. Hopefully though he will tell him soon. Plus, Penelople who has SO much power could meet Odysseus before he reveals himself and decide that the suitors were right about how they feel about him, and let the suitors do whatever they want to him. I really feel that Odysseus, though it was smart to have hidden himself from the suitors, should tell the people who are helping him just to be on the safe side.
ReplyDeleteSomewhat building off of what Spencer said, I believe that at certain times it is necessary for someone to withhold the truth to protect their safety and that of those around them. As Odysseus neared Ithaca after nearly twenty years, he was not ignorant of what had happened when his friends and fellow war-heroes had returned to their respective homes. A prime example of this is Agamemnon of Mycenae. While Agamemnon was away at war his wife, Clytemnestra, had gotten comfortable with another man, Aegisthus. When Agamemnon returned home he unknowingly walked straight into his own death. After hearing of this situation, Odysseus knew he had to be very cautious to ensure his own safety. Once he returned to Ithaca he stayed with the king’s (in reality his own) swineherd where he took on the persona of a beggar, from a wealthy family in Crete who was on the run after killing a man. His story was perfectly crafted, choosing a location far enough to avoid investigation as well as giving off the impression that he is powerful, potentially dangerous, but most of all not one to be messed with. Odysseus tactfully inquired about the situation in Ithaca, trying to learn if there would be any men as great a threat to him as Aegisthus had been to Agamemnon. Furthermore, when Telemachus made his way to the swineherd’s home, Odysseus resisted the urge to rush straight to his son, thereby completely giving away his story, but instead kept up the act gathering enough information to decide that it would be safe to tell his son. The reason, I believe, for telling his son was that Odysseus knew that he would need help if he truly wished to rid his home of the troublesome suitors and claim back all that was his. As much as it pained him, he could not tell his wife or father, or anyone else for that matter, because the more people that knew that he had returned, the greater the possibility for one of those people to inform the suitors. He knew that any chance he had against the large number of men would require a surprise attack, therefore he knew he could not risk his presence getting out. In conclusion, I believe that this story created by Odysseus was fabricated for good reason, and in this situation, telling the whole truth about his identity could have cost Odysseus and his family dearly.
ReplyDeletei made this before Kate and Grace made their comments, but it didn't upload right, sorry.
ReplyDeleteI agree with my classmates that trickery, deceit and distrust were definitely encouraged by Homer’s Odyssey. Odysseus seems to instinctively lie to everyone he comes into contact with (compulsive lying disorder?), but it seems to be working out quite well for him. As Sam pointed out, though Odysseus has seen his share of troubles, he has yet to encounter an obstacle that he has been unable to pass. And we have already heard from Tiresias, the prophet that Odysseus went to visit in the underworld, that Odysseus’s success is not going to come to an end here in Ithaca., “No doubt you will pay [the suitors] back in blood when you get home!”. (11.135) We also learn from Tiresias that no one is ever going to murder Odysseus, but that, long after Odysseus finishes with the suitors “a gentle, painless death, far from the sea it comes / to take [Odysseus] down, borne down with the years in ripe old age”. So we basically, we know that Odysseus is going to keep having success and we can only assume that he will continue with his lying ways, as he has done throughout the story so far.
So we already know that Odysseus has been and will continue to be successful with his lying. But now I would like to point out something that my classmates have seemingly failed to realize. Odysseus had the gods’ support and encouragement in his untruthful endeavors. Athena has supported Odysseus through thick and thin throughout the book, no matter how much he lies, and is by far the most involved god in the story. In fact, she even has helped him and Telemachas plan their deceits, specifically immediately after Odysseus reached Ithaca and when Telemachus was preparing to leave Ithaca to search for Odysseus.
For these two reasons, that Odysseus is successful through his lies and he is supported by Athena in his lies, I believe it is quite obvious that Homer supports lying, at least for a good purpose, and that therefore, it is accepted by Mycenaean society.